but incredibly sad.

YES.

luckily I don't actually have a lot of uni this semester

What's your major (or interest, which are not always the same things, are they?)

And thank you muchly for the support. I've tried to accept that it's an up and down thing; but it's so easy when I'm on one end of the other to think "this is the way it's going to be forever". They've done studies - people with depression can experience happiness but have a very hard time remembering it. I was mentioning this to my best friend last night and that's been her experience as well.

I saw that post! But I was unsure whether/how to reply, since it was so personal.

I appreciate the fact that you saw it, even. Replying to it is totally up to you IF you want to. I honestly didn't expect anyone to reply. And, the whole conversation starts going more toward the show Riley and less towards my own anyway. Which normally would be of no interest to me either but apparently I have things to "exorcise".

how much of a joke was that? ;)

None whatsoever:


I completely utterly endorse this and would be happy to look it over for you!

Thanks! It's very in little "snapshots" that could be arranged any which way, so I'm trying to get it into readable shape.



What's your major (or interest, which are not always the same things, are they?)

Asian Studies, with a focus on Japanese language. Just your regular manga geek. ;) Though I've been exceedingly into US TV shows recently. ... are you watching any shows? I watched Ringer for the SMG and recently went through the two seasons of Once Upon A Time.

And thank you muchly for the support. I've tried to accept that it's an up and down thing; but it's so easy when I'm on one end of the other to think "this is the way it's going to be forever". They've done studies - people with depression can experience happiness but have a very hard time remembering it. I was mentioning this to my best friend last night and that's been her experience as well.

Oh, I can definitely attest to that study. Sometimes you just sit there and wonder "is there ever gonna be a time when I/things won't be this way?" And then you get really sad. :(

I appreciate the fact that you saw it, even. Replying to it is totally up to you IF you want to. I honestly didn't expect anyone to reply. And, the whole conversation starts going more toward the show Riley and less towards my own anyway. Which normally would be of no interest to me either but apparently I have things to "exorcise".

Ah, yeah. We all do. I guess I'll go back and read the discussion in the comments! That's also always fun.

None whatsoever:

Well, would you look at that. ... and I wrote a whole three-paragraph stream-of-consciousness metasplurge here but cut it out and saved it for later I thought I'd ask your permission. Because personally, I hate when I (want to) have Ideas and then someone else comes along and does the thinking/talking for me. :P SO if you wanna see what I've got so far, tell me, and if not, I understand that too.

Thanks! It's very in little "snapshots" that could be arranged any which way, so I'm trying to get it into readable shape.

/just waving the pompoms here
are you watching any shows? I watched Ringer for the SMG and recently went through the two seasons of Once Upon A Time.

I'm not much of a tv watcher; my sweetie likes to watch things before bed so we'll watch together on Netflix. I did watch Ringer on my own also, for SMG as you did; I wouldn't have otherwise. (I have some rants about some of the stereotypes on that show and missteps. I'll save them for another time.) I've seen Bones through the end of S7 (I ended up disliking it by mid S3 and the mindfuckery has gotten worse, but my sweetie likes it) and now we're on S2 of Crossing Jordan on a friend's rec. (Also, I had a crush on Jill Hennessy back when she was on Law & Order in the '90's.) I've seen the first two seasons of Nurse Jackie and liked it but the third season isn't available on Netflix.

The other series I really like is Parks and Rec, probably my favorite comedy; my sweetie says she doesn't find it funny.

Other than that, not much. I haven't seen Mad Men, TVD, Breaking Bad, Friday Night Lights, all the series that people rave about. Then again I haven't seen Glee either. So, it balances out I guess.

Sometimes you just sit there and wonder "is there ever gonna be a time when I/things won't be this way?" And then you get really sad. :(

*Nods* Yes to all of this, exactly so, And sometimes it's beyond "sadness". It's not a "cry and then I'll feel better" sad. It's just always there; sometimes it turns to numbness and apathy or hopelessness, sometimes a rage I have to try to swallow, and then back to hopelessness. And if someone hasn't experienced that, they can't "get" it, anymore than I can "get" what it would have been like to grow up in a stable household with healthy parents. It's beyond my ken.

Well, would you look at that. ... and I wrote a whole three-paragraph stream-of-consciousness metasplurge here but cut it out and saved it for later I thought I'd ask your permission. Because personally, I hate when I (want to) have Ideas and then someone else comes along and does the thinking/talking for me. :P SO if you wanna see what I've got so far, tell me, and if not, I understand that too.

I like that word - "metasplurge"! I'm going to borrow it, I think. As to the other, oh certainly if you want to post something on your LJ instead of here, do; just send me a link so I can look at it, and if this convo inspired you, just give credit and link here. (Mutual linkage, hah.) If something I said inspired more thinky-thoughts in you then that's a huge compliment.

(I have some rants about some of the stereotypes on that show and missteps. I'll save them for another time.)

Oh, yes. Did that show ever fail. It was a glorious trainwreck basically.

I've seen Bones through the end of S7 (I ended up disliking it by mid S3 and the mindfuckery has gotten worse, but my sweetie likes it)

Baw, that's sad. :( I vaguely, very vaguely thought maybe I'd give it a try someday. Also I hear good things about Parks and Rec.

Also you have actually watched more TV than I have, I think. But then I don't even own a TV so I just stealth-stream stuff on the internet. I watched a few eps of Glee and was thoroughly unimpressed. The main brand of humor in that series seems to be "nasty".

*Nods* Yes to all of this, exactly so, And sometimes it's beyond "sadness". It's not a "cry and then I'll feel better" sad. It's just always there; sometimes it turns to numbness and apathy or hopelessness, sometimes a rage I have to try to swallow, and then back to hopelessness. And if someone hasn't experienced that, they can't "get" it, anymore than I can "get" what it would have been like to grow up in a stable household with healthy parents. It's beyond my ken.

Yes. :( *hugs tight*

I like that word - "metasplurge"! I'm going to borrow it, I think.

Haha, feel free!

As to the other, oh certainly if you want to post something on your LJ instead of here, do; just send me a link so I can look at it, and if this convo inspired you, just give credit and link here. (Mutual linkage, hah.) If something I said inspired more thinky-thoughts in you then that's a huge compliment.

Oh, no, I was going to post it here; as I said, I was just worried I'd be like. Precluding YOUR thinky-thoughts or something. Which I don't wanted to accidentally end up doing.

Did that show ever fail. It was a glorious trainwreck basically.

Meh. "Glorious trainwreck" is too dignified a phrase for it. I liked the "moral ambiguity" - and from what I saw in interviews with Sarah, that was exactly her intention: the series was actually getting more interesting when it concentrated on the sisters and their relationship, as well as their reversals of fortune rather than plot mechanics - if it had started out closer to that level, we might have had something. It needed to be more intelligent from the get-go, not "clever". There's a difference.

But Bridget did punch Mr Cooper. Never mind that she doesn't look tall enough to reach his jaw even with her 4" (?) heels. (I think it was actually her yelling at him rather than the physical action that I loved. There is SOMETHING about Sarah's voice, and it's not the sort of voice I usually am attracted to in women; I tend to prefer huskier, deeper voices, and her's is anything but. Or maybe it reminded me of a scene in "postmodern western" The Quick and the Dead where Sharon Stone goes after an asshole who just had sex with a 12 year old girl. Or Joyce with the fire axe in School Hard. Fierce, protective warrior mamas FTW.)

Also I hear good things about Parks and Rec.

Word of (internet) mouth got me watching it, esp Nathaniel Rogers praise on "the film experience blog" which I used to visit every day. I haven't watched S1 but apparently it got a lot better (or so I've heard said) in S2. I might go back and watch S1 at some point. The humor is so dry and deadpan, and it's a tight ensemble - it's played as a "reality show" or "documentary" in some ways in that the characters do stop at times to talk to the camera. Amy Poehler is marvelous so yes, do give it a try. And one of my other favorite shows was Dead Like Me, have you seen that? That's the great thing about Netflix, discovering older shows that didn't get much of a chance and I missed the first time around. I love Georgia so much - and I found a nifty little fic that's a DLM / btvs crossover, I'm surprised there's not tons of those. We also loved Better off Ted, an office comedy that only lasted two seasons, and we LOVED No Reservations but Netflix took that off streaming *pout*

We don't own a tv either, or rather, cable hookup; haven't since I got together with my sweetie in 1996 or '97, because she didn't own one. And after having had it with a housemate I knew that there was almost nothing on for the money. Which is why I never saw Buffy when it originally aired.

*hugs tight*

*HUGS BACK* Aw thanks, hon I do love hugs. Sometimes I think I'm going to rename this LJ "Hugs Central". :-) Whatever went on in my house when I was a little girl, showing affection was something I did learn from my mom; there was that baseline of love and support, so I guess that's part of the reason I appreciate Joyce and wish she'd been on the show more.

Oh, no, I was going to post it here; as I said, I was just worried I'd be like. Precluding YOUR thinky-thoughts or something. Which I don't wanted to accidentally end up doing.

Have you SEEN the length of my comments/replies? Hon, no worries, that's what LJ is all about, to me. You can't proclude my thoughts and more likely you'll just enrich them or get me going. I LOVE conversation, (as long as a certain modicum of civility and consideration is in place, y'know?) that's what brought me to this fandom.

Basically, I have in mind a Riley meta because I'm trying to have at least a little more compassion for him - I can see how we got from the nice but sometimes patronizing guy in S4 (esp Doomed) who doesn't ask questions and follows the rules, to the guy who falls apart because he can't handle chaos, and who then turns on Buffy. His betrayal of her trust is pretty huge to me and almost no one in fandom pays much attention to it, I think it's a bigger wound on her psyche than fandom, or even the show itself, gives credit for. but how did we get from Riley cheating on her "repeatedly, with professionals" as mcjulie has said, from him getting suck jobs in Listening to Fear, making love to buffy at the beginning of ITW, then the next time we see him, she's found him getting another suckjob - to Xander being the voice of the writers who claimed (according to Jane Espenson) that it really was all Buffy's fault? WTF?????

The Riley-Dawn connection is something I started working out by accident looking at those screencaps "Hmm, they injure themselves in nearly the identical place on their arm, that's got to mean something right?" They are both trying to establish identity, to make themselves "real" - "imprinted on the body". they both have a false sense of self (in Riley's case, it's Maggie's fault, the monks fault in Dawn's) and look to Buffy for support and confirmation; she has to deal with and clean up the messes left by others. Riley turns on her rather viciously and leaves because of his cowardice, she runs after him anyway and fails to catch the helicopter and misses. Dawn runs away angrily when she learns the truth, Buffy, Willow and Tara save her from Glory, and Buffy confirms her bond with Dawn "Summers Blood". So - SISTER LOVE FTW.

Which, great - the show again confirms the importance of genuine love, and the show is very much about true love vs the illusory notions of "romantic love". I still can't get to how it's all Buffy's fault and the further WTF-ery of AYW. There's no way to make that "right", any more than there is Tara's death or the racist "gang rape" metaphor in GiD.
1/2 oops
His betrayal of her trust is pretty huge to me and almost no one in fandom pays much attention to it

I think I've seen several Riley smackdowns around? elisi in particular (hi, I'm a professional lurker :'D) has written Riley-related meta.

but how did we get from Riley cheating on her "repeatedly, with professionals" as mcjulie has said, from him getting suck jobs in Listening to Fear, making love to buffy at the beginning of ITW, then the next time we see him, she's found him getting another suckjob - to Xander being the voice of the writers who claimed (according to Jane Espenson) that it really was all Buffy's fault? WTF?????

Because she didn't love him enough, duh! ... is probably the rationale they came up with, which is gross. Or rather, the question often seems to be whether she loved him at all. Or whether she "let him in" etc. And the fact that he felt like she didn't somehow makes him right and his behavior negligible. :| IT'S GROSS.

The Riley-Dawn connection is something I started working out by accident looking at those screencaps "Hmm, they injure themselves in nearly the identical place on their arm, that's got to mean something right?" They are both trying to establish identity, to make themselves "real" - "imprinted on the body".

Haha, that's what I got, too!

and look to Buffy for support and confirmation; she has to deal with and clean up the messes left by others. Riley turns on her rather viciously and leaves because of his cowardice, she runs after him anyway and fails to catch the helicopter and misses. Dawn runs away angrily when she learns the truth,

Oh, also a good point. I'll post my interpretation at the end. :)

Buffy, Willow and Tara save her from Glory, and Buffy confirms her bond with Dawn "Summers Blood". So - SISTER LOVE FTW.

W O R D.

Which, great - the show again confirms the importance of genuine love, and the show is very much about true love vs the illusory notions of "romantic love".

That is also true. And I really appreciate that the genuine article doesn't always need to be romantic in nature.

I still can't get to how it's all Buffy's fault and the further WTF-ery of AYW. There's no way to make that "right", any more than there is Tara's death or the racist "gang rape" metaphor in GiD.

Yes. There is indeed no way to make these things right. They're part and parcel of the series now and it would be hard to go back on them on the writers' part, however much we may hate it. :(
2/2
NOW. Here's what I originally wrote in reply to your comment where you compared Blood Ties and Into the Woods:

"So I'm guessing the parallel is that they both self-harm as a means of self-actualization? Finding out what that "self" even is; what constitutes it, what it is comprised of? And of course, I have to ask, what's the Buffy of it? What is the parallel in how both Dawn and Riley relate to Buffy? I think I once read a Joss quote where he said Dawn was Buffy's love interest for season five. For Dawn to become that, Riley had to go -- and I've read the argument that this is also a problematic portrayal. As if as long as a man's around, the woman cannot focus on anyone else. Though OTOH we then have Spike, who is an aspiring love interest and sort of maneuvers himself into that position (or, well, is maneuvered there by the writers). Which makes the whole thing not even that different in narrative structure, I guess.

ANYWAY, so. Riley's self-harm is also a betrayal and interpreted as such by Buffy; thus her reaction is anger and jealousy. Meanwhile, Dawn can't betray her because in this situation, Buffy is the traitor by neglecting to be open with Dawn about her origin. And even if the betrayal had somehow been on Dawn's side, a reconciliation would have come fast because the strong familial bonds dictate it. Again, sisterly love trumps all. Though I actually wonder: at the and of Into the Woods, Buffy runs to the platform as Riley flies away -- also a first step towards reconciliation. Had Riley stayed, things might have been tense for a while, but Buffy would have forgiven him with relative ease. As she often does with her lovers or even former lovers. It seems Buffy doesn't even make such a great distinction between family and lovers, or, for that matter, friends. Which is, of course, in part because she's so terribly, terribly afraid of rocking the boat. So afraid of losing her the support of and connection to her loved ones if she expresses resentment (hello, season six).

-- and wow this devolved into Buffy thoughts fast. My bias shows, sob.

Dawn, then: even though we make a point to make a distinction between the body, the mind and the "soul" (however you define it), we still strongly associate our natural bodies with the self (a thought also explored in sci fi/cyberpunk works). So here's the obvious conflict of, if Dawn has only existed as a physical presence in the world for six months, is what her mind, her memories tell her void? Is her very self a void? Because if she was created by someone else, and such a short time ago, there is no part of herself apart from that, none that was not created and was entirely her own. Thus later: let me research, let me patrol, let me learn. Please, let me not be something that is shaped by what is done to it (and I use "thing" and "it" purposefully here -- is Buffy's overprotectiveness of Dawn in a way its own objectification? Certainly, it's keeping Dawn childlike). And because the Key was an object without consciousness (presumably – and isn't there an interesting thought?), Dawn also does not have access to her past as the Key at all, thus rendering both of her existences „unreal“."

... and that's how far I got. Seems to me like this train of thought is not yet concluded. :|a I was basically thinking while I was writing. Thinking through writing. It happens sometimes.
the series was actually getting more interesting when it concentrated on the sisters and their relationship, as well as their reversals of fortune rather than plot mechanics

Agreed! I was so sad that they didn't develop it to my satisfaction, especially Siobhan's side. I really liked that moment when Bridget found her "confession" in the chess table. I wish they'd elaborated on that more.

There is SOMETHING about Sarah's voice, and it's not the sort of voice I usually am attracted to in women; I tend to prefer huskier, deeper voices, and her's is anything but.

IDK I think it does sometimes have a husky quality. Or maybe raspy? >> lolol. But yes -- just. Sarah's appearance and voice and presence kind of stick out. Which may well be why I like her.

Fierce, protective warrior mamas FTW.

Definitely!

And one of my other favorite shows was Dead Like Me, have you seen that?

I tried, but didn't get through the first episode, I think. Watching things is hard on the brain sometimes, which is why it usually takes me a long time. :(

*HUGS BACK* Aw thanks, hon I do love hugs. Sometimes I think I'm going to rename this LJ "Hugs Central". :-) Whatever went on in my house when I was a little girl, showing affection was something I did learn from my mom; there was that baseline of love and support, so I guess that's part of the reason I appreciate Joyce and wish she'd been on the show more.

*GIVES MORE HUGS THEN!!!* Ugh, sorry to hear your childhood home apparently wasn't a good place to be. :((
I was so sad that they didn't develop it to my satisfaction, especially Siobhan's side. I really liked that moment when Bridget found her "confession" in the chess table. I wish they'd elaborated on that more.

YES. When they just started digging deeper with that was when I got into it: the flashback of Siobhan's expression when she gets the necklace from Bridget in the mail; Bridget wishing on the phone to Malcolm that she could have forgiven whats-his-name as herself, not as her sister. THAT was interesting to me: deconstructing Malcolm's rather simplistic notions of forgiveness - paging Giles in IOHIFY. "forgiveness", the need of it, the inability to give it, is at the heart of the sisters' shared arc. Saying "I forgive you" doesn't necessarily signify true forgiveness any more than "I love you" signifies true love. You CAN'T force forgiveness, although you can work towards it; it's still a process & will or won't happen when you're not looking for it or trying anymore.

See, there really were some interesting nuggets on that show underneath the nonsensical plot tricks *grumbles*

Or maybe raspy?

It's funny in TKIM when Willow is taking a cup of tea to Kennedy - who isn't really sick anyway, and Sarah is clearly the one who has a cold - I think that's where the perception of "raspy" comes in.) when it comes to female singers, for instance, my preference is for altos rather than sopranos: Roberta Flack, Wynonna Judd, Karen Carpenter, Etta James, Amy Ray, Diana Krall, etc. (Emmylou Harris and Kate Bush are exceptions but it depends entirely on the songs or the albums in question.) But it's also closer to the sound of my own voice, my sweetie's, mom's and best friend Kendra's; and we all have HATED our voices when we hear them recorded. we all think we sound "unfeminine". Which is bizarre: we have very feminine women like Marlene Dietrich, Roslyn Russell and Kathleen Turner etc as role models

part of the reason my sweetie and I like Kathryn Hahn on Crossing Jordan is that she reminds us of a young Bette Midler, definitely not the WASP standard of beauty but very appealing. BTW, I rewatched The Way We Were recently and I'd forgotten how powerful watching Barbra Streisand was to me at the time, when I was a little girl, and how she was one of my earliest role models: the message that a woman could be a movie star and NOT look like "the WASP Ideal". (And I'm not Jewish.) I don't think our media has really evolved since then, though.

I tried, but didn't get through the first episode, I think. Watching things is hard on the brain sometimes, which is why it usually takes me a long time.

If you get a chance, I definitely recommend giving it another go when you're in the mood. the "bitchiness" of the mother character was off-putting for me at first, but then she evolves over the show into a really dimensional character,and one of my favorite parts of the series. And Georgia has a lot of Buffy to her in some ways - rebellious, breaks the rules, tenderhearted underneath a tough exterior, not traditionally pretty, stubborn, loyal. Like Buffy, Georgia has a deep bond with a difficult mother and younger sister (very much like Dawn in some ways). OTOH The fact that Jasmine Guy has the least to do on the show as the only person of color still grates, though. There was a follow-up movie a few years later but I haven't heard anything good about it.

sorry to hear your childhood home apparently wasn't a good place to be

Thanks hon. And I don't mean to whine or make it sound like "poor me, I had the worst childhood ever!" Because, no. but my life definitely informs how I interpret the show, why I can understand certain things that happen; and I'm beginning to realize (re: my Ted meta) that not speaking about it or acknowledging it keeps me locked into it and makes it "the boss of me"; keeps anyone who experienced it - or experiences depression, etc - feeling isolated and alone, because that's how we were brought up: don't ask, don't tell, so to speak. And it keeps the cycle going endlessly.
Snoopy addendum on someone else's conversation: watch Lost. I think of Jack in the same way I think of Riley: I genuinely like the guy, he just makes some dickish choices and I really don't ship him with anyone. Also on Netflix

OH AND SEE IF YOU CAN DOWNLOAD SEASON 1 OF ORPHAN BLACK. BEST THING I'VE SEEN IN A LONG, LONG TIME.
You had recommended Lost for Kate's story back on my Ted meta didn't you? I still haven't gotten to it. (My sweetie and I tend to watch a series on Netflix all the way through, then move on to the next one when we're done. We're watching Crossing Jordan right now. She used to only want to watch comedies but you know what? Most comedies suck IMO.)

SEASON 1 OF ORPHAN BLACK.

I confess I've never heard of it, but thanks for the rec! *runs to look it up*

ETA: speaking of dickish choices, I like Garrett Macy on Crossing Jordan quite a bit, but boy is he messed up when it comes to the women in his life. I love him and Renee Walcott together because they are so well-paired; she is tough, whip-smart, and calls him on his shit. (I'm only in S3, though, so I don't know if they go anywhere with those two.)

Edited at 2013-06-28 07:23 pm (UTC)
I've heard good things about Orphan Black. One of these days, I'll get around to watching it.

Also hi. :3
Hi back!

the Dru/Buffy picspam meta I'm working on right now is starting to grow by monstrous proportions. Edvard Munch, fear of female sexuality and all that jazz. What's on your plate?
Hey darling, I just made a post. Go look? ;)

That picspam sounds beautiful. *-* Dru/Buffy as in, parallels between the two?